• Wall

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to All on Friday, December 13, 2024 07:56:02
    From "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone":

    --------------
    "Welcome," said Hagrid, "to Diagon Alley."

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway. Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink instantly back into solid wall.
    --------------

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun, isn't it?

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Mortar M.@1:124/5016 to Alexander Koryagin on Friday, December 13, 2024 00:42:31
    Re: Wall
    By: Alexander Koryagin to All on Fri Dec 13 2024 07:56:02

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun, isn't it?

    I'd just say, "oops" and call it a day.
    --- SBBSecho 3.23-Linux
    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (1:124/5016)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, December 12, 2024 23:54:35
    Hi, Alexander -- on Dec 13 2024 at 07:56, you wrote:

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway.
    Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink
    instantly back into solid wall.
    --------------

    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun,
    isn't it?

    I can't give you an answer -- it's just a way of writing!

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 17, 2024 10:54:57
    Hi Alexander,

    13.12.2024 11:56:02, Alexander Koryagin <Alexander.Koryagin@p0.f360.n221.z2.fidonet.org> wrote:

    He grinned at Harry's amazement. They stepped through the archway.
    Harry looked quickly over his shoulder and saw the archway shrink instantly back into solid wall. --------------
    Why is "solid wall" without "a" article? It is a countable noun,
    isn't it?

    I can tell that in this case it "kind of" isn't. It's "solid wall" as an
    idea (or type) of vertical surface, not one separate wall, neither one
    of four wall in a room or something, you know what I mean? I'd suggest
    you have a peek at context.reverso.net and look around for examples and
    ideas of how words or expressions are used in written English (I find
    this site very handy).

    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of articles:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.


    --
    "A closed mouth gathers no foot."
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    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Gleb Hlebov on Thursday, December 19, 2024 11:04:24
    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 17.12.2024 13:54


    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of
    articles:
    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.

    Poor examples IMHO.

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly - wall is a countable noun.

    air is not
    ground is not.

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2024

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, December 19, 2024 13:56:02
    Hi Alexander,

    19.12.2024 15:04:24, Alexander Koryagin wrote:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.
    Poor examples IMHO.

    Could be. But you get the idea, don't you?

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly - wall is a countable noun.

    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well, but
    we're also free to say

    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"

    air is not
    ground is not.

    They're not, technically, although could be used with indefinite
    articles.

    Same with "town", BTW:

    "He's out of town", or,
    "Tony's back in town, let's pay him a visit".

    *Grok?*


    --
    "Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with
    popcorn." -- Fulton Sheen.
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    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Ed Vance@1:2320/105 to Gleb Hlebov on Thursday, December 19, 2024 18:38:54
    Hi Alexander,

    13.12.2024 11:56:02, Alexander Koryagin <Alexander.Koryagin@p0.f360.n221.z2.fidonet.org> wrote:

    I can tell that in this case it "kind of" isn't. It's "solid wall" as an
    idea (or type) of vertical surface, not one separate wall, neither one
    of four wall in a room or something, you know what I mean? I'd suggest
    you have a peek at context.reverso.net and look around for examples and
    ideas of how words or expressions are used in written English (I find
    this site very handy).

    In the following phrases we can see the same "absence" of articles:

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.

    --
    "A closed mouth gathers no foot."
    --- InterSquish NNTP Server/FTN Gate
    * Origin: www.wfido.ru (2:5023/24.4222)


    context.reverso.net

    Thanks, gotta have a look at that URL.
    Ed
    --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Gleb Hlebov on Monday, December 23, 2024 08:24:22
    Hi, Gleb Hlebov!
    I read your message from 19.12.2024 16:56

    Okay, things don't just disappear into thin air.
    I prefer to stand on solid ground.
    Poor examples IMHO.

    Could be. But you get the idea, don't you?

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly -
    wall is a countable noun.

    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well,
    but we're also free to say

    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"

    Well, let's treat "wall" as "cake". Although, if we again look into Longman dictionary we'll see that it says bluntly that
    pie /paɪ/ noun [uncountable and countable] ;)

    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach to it?

    Bye, Gleb!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2024

    ---
    * Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/360.0)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 24, 2024 16:51:20
    Hi Alexander,

    Mon 23 Dec 2024 at 08:24, you wrote to me:

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says bluntly -
    wall is a countable noun.
    Here we go again. "Pie" or "Cake" are countable nouns as well,
    but we're also free to say
    "I want Cherry Pie", or,
    "For Gods' sake, how can you not love Cake?"
    Well, let's treat "wall" as "cake". Although, if we again look into Longman dictionary we'll see that it says bluntly that pie /paɪ/ noun [uncountable and countable] ;)

    Do you own a paper copy? I can't open the website at the moment.

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky. It's kind of a "fuzzy" subject for those with different language backgrounds. I believe even French and Deutsch have some differences in this regard with English, let alone Russian (or even some more "exotic" ones).

    I'd say that you rely too much on dictionaries and try to over-formalise your approach to language learning, while in real life, in fiction, newspapers/magazines, talk shows etc., it may at times look a bit different.

    In our case I'd say it's an "object vs. substance" thing.
    Here are some instances from a website I find suitable:

    "Brick" as substance/material:

    "Drilling into brick is a key DIY skill, needed for all kinds of home
    improvement projects." ...

    "You'll require a masonry drill bit for drilling into brick." ...

    "If you're drilling into a softer brick and don't need to
    make too deep a hole, you may..." -- wait... it's no longer the same
    substance here, neither a flaw in the brickwork but a "different
    kind of brick material".

    "Hold your drill straight and level when drilling into brick(1) - some
    drills come with spirit levels built-in. Starting slowly, drill into
    the brick(2), pushing the drill towards the wall." -- okay, (1) is a
    "brick as generalised material"; (2) is the "stuff" that you're now
    interacting with physically.

    I hope it makes sense (no big deal if it doesn't though).

    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach to it?

    It can only be referred to as THE Wall, given its singular and unique nature (the same as the Moon, the Earth's only natural satellite). No other options here. :-)


    ... Error #010: Illegal error. Do not get this error
    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5
    * Origin: Microsuxx, Inc. (2:5023/24.4222)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Gleb Hlebov on Saturday, December 28, 2024 19:42:35
    Hi, Gleb! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky.

    Yes, I've noticed over the years that my Russian correspondents tend to have difficulty with articles in English. Based on what little I understand of the Russian language I figure I'd have a very similar problem there.... :-)


    I'd say that you rely too much on dictionaries and try
    to over-formalise your approach to language learning

    !? I conclude your preferred learning styles differ. Alexander has been actively involved here for a long time & what he's doing seems to work for him. I probably own more dictionaries & refer to them more often than a lot of other people do. I'd like to think I help my readers use them more efficiently
    ... but you may not have been here long enough to notice I say on occasion "Did you continue reading as far as definition #12, where I found the answer?" :-))


    in real life, in fiction, newspapers/magazines, talk
    shows etc., it may at times look a bit different.

    If you want to see & hear native speakers saying "would of never" in our local news or some advertiser telling you the XYZ Company is best qualified to update your windows because they are "real perfessionals" it certainly does. I don't rely on these sources for examples of good English usage...


    In our case I'd say it's an "object vs. substance" thing.

    (which any dictionary I'd give house room to will probably tell you)


    Here are some instances from a website I find suitable:

    "Brick" as substance/material:

    "Drilling into brick is a key DIY skill, needed for
    all kinds of home improvement projects."

    ... but I understand & appreciate that native speakers tend to learn by example while dictionaries cut these things short. We all have our talents. If you know how how to find material such as the above, I'm most grateful. :-)


    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if I approach
    to it?

    It can only be referred to as THE Wall, given its singular and
    unique nature (the same as the Moon, the Earth's only natural
    satellite). No other options here. :-)

    To Alexander I'd say "I were to approach it" or "I approached it"... to you I'd say something more like "You've never heard of Hadrian's Wall?" :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Ardith Hinton on Monday, December 30, 2024 19:40:28
    Hi Ardith, long time no talk!

    On 28.12.24 23:42:35, you wrote:

    Again, as you may surmise, using articles is tricky.
    Yes, I`ve noticed over the years that my Russian correspondents
    tend to have difficulty with articles in English. Based on what
    little I understand of the Russian language I figure I`d have a
    very similar problem there.... :-)

    Absolutely! Articles as a concept are non-existent in some languages,
    and for many learners it's quite hard to get their mind around them.
    Language and mentality barriers do exist, unfortunately. Things do get
    lost in translation. I believe it may not be as bad for us English
    tutees as for you English speakers who, for whatever reason, would want
    to start learning Russian just to make a terrifying discovery of nearly
    70 various inflection forms (AFAIK) they'd have to learn, or memorize.

    I probably own more dictionaries & refer to them more often than
    a lot of other people do. I`d like to think I help my readers use
    them more efficiently
    ... but you may not have been here long enough to notice I say on occasion "Did you continue reading as far as definition #12,
    where I found the answer?" :-))

    Dictionaries are indispensable, I have nothing against them whatsoever
    :-) In our case, as far as the subject is concerned, is it correct to
    assume that a countable noun may be allowed to exist in the story
    without an article attached to it? Or, on the other hand, a "strictly" uncountable noun may be used with the indef. article in a number of
    cases? It seems one can't tell by simply looking it up in a dictionary.

    If you want to see & hear native speakers saying "would of never"
    in our local news or some advertiser telling you the XYZ Company
    is best qualified to update your windows because they are "real perfessionals" it certainly does. I don`t rely on these sources
    for examples of good English usage...

    Would of never... Well, I've had my share of those, and Could-of-been's
    too, reading various posts on forums/boards back in the day. I even
    remember asking somewhere, "I wonder if this could be a contemporary
    acceptable form of writing it?" :-)

    As with that XYZ company, maybe they're just good average IT
    professionals, not perfectionists? That is, if you mean "Windows" the
    OS, I assume, not windows in the house. (Are those even "updatable"?)

    We have to admit, not any source is reliable in this regard. And as a
    side note, I've been listening to a great song earlier today, and it's
    titled "Shoulda": "I shoulda let go... bla-bla... etc." (It's British
    BTW).

    In our case I`d say it`s an "object vs. substance" thing.
    (which any dictionary I`d give house room to will probably tell
    you)

    Nice one! :-) "...give house room to" is not about "a room in the
    house", but "room" as in "Make room!", right? House room = house space.

    If you know how how to find material such as the above, I`m most
    grateful. :-)

    Search engines now make it easier than ever, that's for sure. Some of
    us are just sleeping on such an opportunity.

    ... to you I`d say something more like "You`ve never heard of
    Hadrian`s Wall?" :-Q

    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's Wall"?


    --
    "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age
    eighteen." -- Albert Einstein
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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Gleb Hlebov on Monday, December 30, 2024 19:12:48
    Hi, Gleb -- on Dec 30 2024 at 19:40, you wrote:


    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's Wall"?

    There's a lot of the Wall left standing, and some being restored: www.mickledore.co.uk/blog/walking-hadrians-wall-guide



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Dallas Hinton on Sunday, January 05, 2025 23:20:17
    Hi Dallas!

    On 30.12.24 23:12:48, Dallas Hinton wrote:

    I think I haven't until just now, but Hadrian is/was a proper noun
    (thus no articles needed)? Anyway, given its present condition,
    shouldn't it be more aptly termed "The leftovers of Hadrian's
    Wall"?
    There's a lot of the Wall left standing, and some being restored: www.mickledore.co.uk/blog/walking-hadrians-wall-guide

    My bad, it is now actually "The Reconstruction of H's Wall" :-)


    --
    Estridge's Law: No matter how large and standardized the
    marketplace is, IBM can redefine it.
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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, January 16, 2025 20:26:19
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Gleb Hlebov:

    Just look in the Longman dictionary - it says
    bluntly- 'wall is a countable noun.

    Okay. I seldom refer to it, unless my Free Dictionary cites it... but although I have some concerns about whether this is a British or American source nowadays I understand why you may find it helpful. I can usually determine from how a word is defined whether it's countable, uncountable, or both.

    Your original question pertained to an example in which you saw "solid wall" used without an article. It's not quite enough to set off the alarm bells in my head, and I do find it growing on me... but judging by the responses I see here I'd probably tend to follow my mother's advice: "If in doubt, don't." :-Q


    The Great Chinese wall is "wall" or "a wall" if
    I approach to it?
    /since "approach" means "come near to", this "to" is unnecessary

    According to my dictionaries "if" = a preposition used in conditional sentences or clauses, in which case the verb tenses may not be quite what you're accustomed to seeing elsewhere. I'd call this object the Great Wall of China... but I understand what you mean. I reckon what matters here is that there may be other large walls (such as Hadrian's Wall & the Berlin Wall) which are important from a historical & geographical standpoint to many people & where I'd say "the" in the absence of a possessive noun because nothing else fits the description.

    Now, as for the verb tenses:
    If I were to win the lottery (which I don't expect to) I might
    visit any number of other places. If I won the lottery (and I
    believe there's a good chance I'd have unlimited funds because
    math isn't my forte) I'd buy an old castle & add a pipe organ.

    If I were travelling in China, I'd ask the locals what they call this thing. If you were to approach it you could do the same. But I understand only a few words in Chinese & I'm not sure whether or not they use articles.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to Ardith Hinton on Friday, January 17, 2025 13:42:20
    Hi Ardith,

    Thu 16 Jan 2025 at 20:26, you wrote to Alexander Koryagin:

    If I were travelling in China, I'd ask the locals what they call this thing. If you were to approach it you could do the same.
    But I understand only a few words in Chinese & I'm not sure whether or
    not they use articles.... :-))

    As a matter of fact they don't have articles.


    ... All things are possible. Except skiing through a revolving door
    --- dED+/ˆ‚– 1.1.5
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