Yesterday there was a relief rally in the Dow Jones. That index rose 1,400 points in the hope of postponing the import duties by three months. That rumor was circulating because an advisor to Trump had suggested that as a way out of this misery.

However, Trump did not bite and did the opposite. He decided to increase the import tariff on Chinese goods to 104%. That import tariff has now come into effect.

The behavior of a toddler...

China called it a mistake piled on top of a mistake.

The question then is... where is this going. 90% of the shit that American households buy comes at least partly from China. The department stores in the US are now full, but in the coming weeks the shelves in the US will become empty, because no importer is going to burn his fingers importing from China.

It fits a dictatorship, empty shelves...
--- SBBSecho 3.24-Linux
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Quoting Joseph Pereira to All <=-

The behavior of a toddler...

China called it a mistake piled on top of a mistake.

The question then is... where is this going. 90% of the shit that
American households buy comes at least partly from China. The
department stores in the US are now full, but in the coming weeks the shelves in the US will become empty, because no importer is going to
burn his fingers importing from China.
It fits a dictatorship, empty shelves...

Where is this going?

Wow, guess we'll have to start making our own 'shit'. Seems like we used
to do that here in the US if I remember correctly.

Sounds like a healthy economy.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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Don Vally wrote to JOSEPH PEREIRA <=-

Where is this going?

Nowhere. Joseph is a propaganda bot.


... My other computer is a Kaypro 4/83.
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Where is this going?

Wow, guess we'll have to start making our own 'shit'. Seems like we used
to do that here in the US if I remember correctly.

Sounds like a healthy economy.

There is a problem with the logic, though. Having American workers make
things because too costly, which is why we don't do it any more. I would
love to see that come back, but I am also realistic. If you have to pay
the workers too much, the products cost too much.

There is also the issue with technology. Back when we made stuff, the materials we needed could be sourced here, and usually cheap. The things
most in demand now are things made from minerals we don't have here, or
don't have in abundance. If we piss off all of our trade partners, we
won't have anywhere to get those materials.

Germany ran into the same issues during WWII. They pissed off any
potential trade partners (in their case, by starting a real war and
invading countries) and ran low on all of the materials they needed, not
just for the war but for their citizens back home. It didn't end well.

The last time the US decided to tariff the hell out of everyone, in an
apparent attempt to isolate itself, it also didn't end well.


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Wow, guess we'll have to start making our own 'shit'. Seems like we used to do that here in the US if I remember correctly.

Sounds like a healthy economy.

Furniture that lasts two generations, or more... computers that are top notch, tools that you don't have to replace once a season; let him open up energy so the $$$ starts flowing again, and America will step up to the plate. And if he follows through with infrastructure and investment over the next 4 years I think the jobs will blow up something fierce.

It is a big pill to swallow with the vastness of tariffs; and I fear that China is in a position to fight to the bitter end. (Which, in their mind is the end of a Trump admin...) IF Trump can figure out how to settle w/ China his legacy is forged in gold...



|07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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Quoting Mike Powell to Don Vally <=-

There is a problem with the logic, though. Having American workers
make things because too costly, which is why we don't do it any more.

We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

I would love to see that come back, but I am also realistic. If you
have to pay the workers too much, the products cost too much.

So since we can't make anything cheaply, we should just give up and let
the slave labor trade make it for us and send all of our dollars
overseas?

This needs to be a global economy, on an even keel. Not onesided with
our competitors having the advantage of a tarriff on our goods.

Germany ran into the same issues during WWII. They pissed off any potential trade partners (in their case, by starting a real war and invading countries) and ran low on all of the materials they needed,
not just for the war but for their citizens back home. It didn't end well.

So you are comparing the United States with Nazi Germany from 1940? Not
too sure that's completely relevant in these days and times.

The last time the US decided to tariff the hell out of everyone, in an apparent attempt to isolate itself, it also didn't end well.

And your examples?

Thanks for your reply Mike

... Conserve toilet paper...use both sides.

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There is a problem with the logic, though. Having American workers
make things because too costly, which is why we don't do it any more.

We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

And we buy all of our stuff from China because US workers rightfully don't
want to work for US $3/hour, which is the average pay for Chinese workers
who make stuff to ship here.

If you can find Americans willing to work for that amount who can also make quality stuff, then you'd best capitalize on that opportunity, at least
until the Union reps start showing up.

I would love to see that come back, but I am also realistic. If you have to pay the workers too much, the products cost too much.

So since we can't make anything cheaply, we should just give up and let
the slave labor trade make it for us and send all of our dollars
overseas?

No, but since we cannot make it as cheaply, we'd better be willing to pay a *whole* lot more for it. As most people are not willing to do so, I don't
see it happening. I do *wish* it would but with the cost of living in the
US where it is now, it would seem impossible.

This needs to be a global economy, on an even keel. Not onesided with
our competitors having the advantage of a tarriff on our goods.

Many of the countries we were tariffing don't have tariffs on our goods.
In the case of Australia, we had a trade *surplus* with them. We were, at least briefly until the pause, tariffing two places that we do no trade
with and that have no permanent human inhabitants... all because an AI generated list included them.

Germany ran into the same issues during WWII. They pissed off any potential trade partners (in their case, by starting a real war and invading countries) and ran low on all of the materials they needed,
not just for the war but for their citizens back home. It didn't end well.

So you are comparing the United States with Nazi Germany from 1940? Not
too sure that's completely relevant in these days and times.

In the sense of what else they were up to -- being Nazis -- it isn't
relevant. In the sense that they didn't have the resources to do what they wanted, and couldn't do it without trade, it is very relevant.

The last time the US decided to tariff the hell out of everyone, in an apparent attempt to isolate itself, it also didn't end well.

And your examples?

Thanks for your reply Mike

Look up the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, a/k/a the Tariff Act of 1930. It was meant to protect the US from foreign competition during the beginning of the Great Depression. It was believed it would improve US employment and manufacturing. It is instead now known for causing a trade war that lead to international trade dropping significantly and making the Depression in the US much worse.


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Don Vally wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

There is a problem with the logic, though. Having American workers
make things because too costly, which is why we don't do it any more.

We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

We don't do it because:
1. The Elitists in gov't put too many regulations on businesses, raising the costs of their products to the point that they cannot compete.
2. Allowing countries like China to dump their products on our markets but not allowing us to sell there.

So since we can't make anything cheaply, we should just give up and let the slave labor trade make it for us and send all of our dollars
overseas?

We can make things cheaply. If the gov't will get out of the way and let companies change to make those products cheaper.

So you are comparing the United States with Nazi Germany from 1940? Not too sure that's completely relevant in these days and times.

Well the Dems in the 1930's and 1940's DID have a love relationship with Nazis and Italian fascism.

The last time the US decided to tariff the hell out of everyone, in an apparent attempt to isolate itself, it also didn't end well.

And your examples?

He is correct. But those tariffs weren't used as leverage like Trump. You see how quickly he takes them off for trading partners who negotiate (note: not capitulate).

China is pissed because:
1. Their economy has been poor for a while now.
2. Their economy is based on manufacturing cheap stuff and selling it to us.
3. The 125% tariff effectively prohibits them from selling much in the U.S.

All of this leads to the Chinese economy collapsing soon.


... Captain we're at 1700 CPS. The UARTs canna take much more
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Quoting Mike Powell to Don Vally <=-

We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

And we buy all of our stuff from China because US workers rightfully
don't want to work for US $3/hour, which is the average pay for Chinese workers who make stuff to ship here.

So you are apparently OK with that logic. We should continue to use
Chinese peasant labor where the person making the goods is not getting
the wage that is deserved/warranted.

If you can find Americans willing to work for that amount who can also make quality stuff, then you'd best capitalize on that opportunity

So you aggree that the wages are not standard and by the way, the
products are not 'qaulity stuff'. Yet you would continue this lopsided
way of getting product from a Communist country. China floods the market
one sidedly with low quality junk made by disadvantaged employees. If we
try to send any quality products to China, not only are the products
more expensive due to what you mention, but China puts a tariff on
products from the US while we don't reciprocate.

I would love to see that come back, but I am also realistic. If you have to pay the workers too much, the products cost too much.

Freedom isn't free.

Many of the countries we were tariffing don't have tariffs on our
goods.

Many? Mistakes get made and get resolved. The alternative is to bend
over and take it, which is apparently OK in your book.

all because an AI generated list included them.

Not sure what your comment is geared toward here. Are you saying no one
is steering the boat?

So you are comparing the United States with Nazi Germany from 1940? Not
too sure that's completely relevant in these days and times.

In the sense of what else they were up to -- being Nazis -- it isn't relevant. In the sense that they didn't have the resources to do what they wanted, and couldn't do it without trade, it is very relevant.

We can agree to disagree on that one.

Look up the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, a/k/a the Tariff Act of 1930. It
was meant to protect the US from foreign competition during the
beginning of the Great Depression.

The Hawley-Smoot tariff was put in place DURING the depression which may
or may not have had something to do with the results. This was also a
measure of placing tariffs on countries who were at that time not
placing tariffs on US goods.

Live and learn - In response to the fallout from that tariff, later administrations shifted towards more reciprocal agreements. The key word
is RECIPROCAL. Reciprocal agreements to mutually lower tariffs to
promote commerce and economic cooperation. So countries who do place
tariffs on US goods where the US does not reciprocate are not good for
the country.

Have a great day Mike! Thanks for your reply

Don

... Exercise your right to arm and keep bears!

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Quoting Ron L. to Don Vally <=-

We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

We don't do it because:
1. The Elitists in gov't put too many regulations on businesses,
raising the costs of their products to the point that they cannot
compete. 2. Allowing countries like China to dump their products on our markets but not allowing us to sell there.

I agree with you on both points. Too much regulation is bad business.
And trade with China is not a 'reciprocal' trade, its lopsided in their
favor.

Well the Dems in the 1930's and 1940's DID have a love relationship
with Nazis and Italian fascism.

I'll have to trust your judgement on that one.

He is correct. But those tariffs weren't used as leverage like Trump.
You see how quickly he takes them off for trading partners who
negotiate (note: not capitulate).

NOTE: Not reciprocal (or even handed)

All of this leads to the Chinese economy collapsing soon.

I recently saw postings by Chinese manufacturers who are in a panic
about the situation. Not good for them, not good for business.

Thanks for your reply, have a great day!

... Undetectable errors are always infinite in variety.

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Don Vally wrote to Dr. What <=-

Well the Dems in the 1930's and 1940's DID have a love relationship
with Nazis and Italian fascism.

I'll have to trust your judgement on that one.

Granted, this one is hard to research since the Dems have worked since the end of WWII to suppress this.


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Ron L. wrote to Don Vally <=-

Mike and his ilk are here to tell you why you are wrong. Facts don't matter to them.

We're all that, to some extent.




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We don't do it anymore because we buy all of our stuff from China.

And we buy all of our stuff from China because US workers rightfully don't want to work for US $3/hour, which is the average pay for Chinese workers who make stuff to ship here.

So you are apparently OK with that logic. We should continue to use
Chinese peasant labor where the person making the goods is not getting
the wage that is deserved/warranted.

Am I OK with it? No.

Do I understand it? Yes.

Do I realize that the only way around it is to build things much more expensively (and possibly lower quality) here? Yes.

Do I realize that this will make most things too expensive for most of us
to afford? Yes.

Am I OK with that? Also No.

Am I OK with creating a US peasant class to replace the Chinese one?
Also No.

Considering some things that Presidential Advisor Elon Musk has said
lately, it sounds like a "US peasant class" is a solution he is considering
as valid.

Please explain how you think this will work in a way that makes things affordable *and* removes the "peasant labor" from the equation.

If you can find Americans willing to work for that amount who can also make quality stuff, then you'd best capitalize on that opportunity

So you aggree that the wages are not standard and by the way, the
products are not 'qaulity stuff'. Yet you would continue this lopsided
way of getting product from a Communist country. China floods the market
one sidedly with low quality junk made by disadvantaged employees. If we
try to send any quality products to China, not only are the products
more expensive due to what you mention, but China puts a tariff on
products from the US while we don't reciprocate.

There may be some low quality stuff, but they also make some very decent things.

I cannot be sure about China, but using Japan as an example, they don't
want any of the gas guzzling trucks and SUVs that represent the majority of automobile output from US companies because they can make more efficient,
and reliable, vehicles of their own. I doubt China wants them, either.

I would love to see that come back, but I am also realistic. If you have to pay the workers too much, the products cost too much.

Freedom isn't free.

Correct, but it also isn't Freedom if only the rich people can afford it.

all because an AI generated list included them.

Not sure what your comment is geared toward here. Are you saying no one
is steering the boat?

Pretty much.

So you are comparing the United States with Nazi Germany from 1940? Not too sure that's completely relevant in these days and times.

In the sense of what else they were up to -- being Nazis -- it isn't relevant. In the sense that they didn't have the resources to do what they wanted, and couldn't do it without trade, it is very relevant.

We can agree to disagree on that one.

Please explain where the rare earth minerals, that we currently must
import if we ever want to build electronics onshore, would come from without trade.

Both the President and Musk have said that being a leader in AI is
important, and you cannot do that without top-of-the-line computer
equipment. That equipment will depend heavily on these minerals.

Look up the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, a/k/a the Tariff Act of 1930. It was meant to protect the US from foreign competition during the beginning of the Great Depression.

The Hawley-Smoot tariff was put in place DURING the depression which may
or may not have had something to do with the results. This was also a
measure of placing tariffs on countries who were at that time not
placing tariffs on US goods.

Live and learn - In response to the fallout from that tariff, later administrations shifted towards more reciprocal agreements. The key word
is RECIPROCAL. Reciprocal agreements to mutually lower tariffs to
promote commerce and economic cooperation. So countries who do place
tariffs on US goods where the US does not reciprocate are not good for
the country.

We had RECIPROCAL agreements with Canada and Mexico, ironically signed into place by Donald Trump. It is *Trump* that decided he didn't like these RECIPROCAL agreements that were in place and started back with tariffs, a la Hawley-Smoot.


* SLMR 2.1a * It isn't "Freedom" if only the rich can afford it.
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Quoting Mike Powell to Don Vally <=-

Please explain how you think this will work in a way that makes things affordable *and* removes the "peasant labor" from the equation.

Not gonna happen. Hopefully it's OK to call you Mike.

Mike - you have multiple references asking me to explain things to you,
in response to my previous explanations. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy
hearing your opinions (sometimes) but this is not high school debate and apparently we are going to have to agree to disagree.

There may be some low quality stuff, but they also make some very
decent things.

I have a West Bend coffee pot that was manufactured in West Bend
Wisconsin in 1960. That coffee pot still works like it's new. Companies
sending their manufacturing to China sell products that might work
longer than the 90 day warranty, but the odds are against it. So I don't believe you on that one. Just my opinion.

I cannot be sure about China, but using Japan as an example, they
don't want any of the gas guzzling trucks and SUVs that represent the majority of automobile output from US companies because they can make
more efficient, and reliable, vehicles of their own. I doubt China
wants them, either.

Well you -are- the person to ask when it comes to what the Chinese and
Japanese people think, so I guess I'll have to take your word on it.

Freedom isn't free.

Correct, but it also isn't Freedom if only the rich people can afford

it.

Just a side note here...

Your hatred for Donald Trump and Elon Musk is palpable. You have to try
and curb that Mike. It's not good for you. Try to relax a little, don't
be so loud about everything. It'll only make you angry and that's not
good. I think the president could lay a golden egg and you would be mad
as hell about it...

Please explain where the rare earth minerals, that we currently must import if we ever want to build electronics onshore, would come from without trade.

See previous response above. Not gonna happen.

You have a great day Mike, and remember - relax a little!

Best regards,

Don

... This tagline is made just for Mike Powell

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Don Vally wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

Mike - you have multiple references asking me to explain things to you,
in response to my previous explanations. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy hearing your opinions (sometimes) but this is not high school debate
and apparently we are going to have to agree to disagree.

You have to remember that Mike is not here to discuss. He's here to push propaganda.

Most people you meet want to have a discussion, bring facts, logic, etc. toward discussing something.

Mike and his ilk are here to tell you why you are wrong. Facts don't matter to them.


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Please explain how you think this will work in a way that makes things affordable *and* removes the "peasant labor" from the equation.

Not gonna happen. Hopefully it's OK to call you Mike.

Mike - you have multiple references asking me to explain things to you,
in response to my previous explanations. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy
hearing your opinions (sometimes) but this is not high school debate and apparently we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Your "previous explanations" are simply to question what I am saying
without offering any explanation as to how you think things would work if
they were done your way.

So I am left to believe that you either you cannot explain how it would
work, or you don't want to because you know it *wouldn't* work.

There is probably no point in continuing this conversation then, if only
one of us -- me -- can explain themselves.


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Quoting Mike Powell to Don Vally <=-

Your "previous explanations" are simply to question what I am saying without offering any explanation as to how you think things would work
if they were done your way.

Thats the way 'you' see it, but you must be wearing rose colored glasses
my friend. Opinions are like sphincters, we all have one. Some people also
have hemorhoids as well.

So I am left to believe that you either you cannot explain how it
would work, or you don't want to because you know it *wouldn't* work.

You can and will believe what you are going to and there is no changing
your mind. So my apologies for interacting with you.

There is probably no point in continuing this conversation then, if
only one of us -- me -- can explain themselves.

Quite narcissistic of you Mike! As you say, there's no point in
continuing this one sided discussion, as you and only you are capable of explaining yourself.

It's been real, and it's been fun - but it hasn't been real fun.

Have a great rest of the week my friend!

Don

... "Don't mince words, Mike ... what do you *REALLY* think?"

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Don Vally wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

Thats the way 'you' see it, but you must be wearing rose colored
glasses my friend. Opinions are like sphincters, we all have one. Some people also have hemorhoids as well.

And it's time for another quote:

"It's bad enough that so many people believe things without any evidence. What is worse is that some people have no conception of evidence and regard facts as just someone else's opinion." -- Thomas Sowell


... "Uh honey, a P5 with a 20" monitor is perfect for mail"
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